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Making A Million-Dollar Business: Paying Attention To The Numbers That Matter 

Transcript 

Nikki (host): 

Your business is an asset that can support a driving life. I believe this, and I'm committed to making this a reality for every entrepreneur and business owner who listens to this podcast. The Women Thriving In Business Podcast was created with you in mind whether thinking about entrepreneurship or you've been in business for a while. This show has inspiration, information, and advice that you can use to thrive in business. Women Thriving in Business features candid and unscripted conversations with entrepreneurs, business experts, authors, and academics who can contribute to your business's success. I talk with leaders who have built thriving organizations and who are willing to share both the positive and challenging realities of the entrepreneurial journey.

 

Nikki (host): 

My name is Nikki Rogers. I am a Transformation Strategist and the host of the Women Thriving In Business Podcast. I work with women leaders to develop the mindset strategies and relationships necessary to thrive in business. Join me and your fellow Thrivers each week on this journey of discovery and success,

 

Nikki (host):

Welcome thrivers to this week's episode of Women Thriving in Business Podcast. My guest today is Kathy Svetina, who is the founder and CEO of NewCastle Finance. So welcome, Kathy.

 

Kathy (guest): 

Thanks for having me, Nikki. I'm super excited to be here. 

 

Nikki (host): 

Yay. Great, great, great. So let's just get right into it. So Kathy, can you tell us about NewCastle Finance and then also what got you started on your entrepreneurial journey?

Kathy (guest): 

NewCastle Finance was founded three years ago because I come from a family of entrepreneurs and I've really seen the struggle that they have when they start to grow. So they usually have the bookkeepers and accountants in place, but no one really tells them, "You have all these numbers now, what do you really do with them? And how do you actually plan for the future?"

 

Kathy (guest): 

So what I did with this business, I really wanted to have women-owned businesses, a place where they can go to get that type of help. So the businesses that I've work with are between a million and ten in revenue, and they're growing really fast, and there's a lot of complexity that comes with it.

Kathy (guest): 

And it's not just good enough to look at your bank account and your P&L statement, but you also need to start to look at the future, especially if you have a lot of growth that you want to go and have in your business. You have to plan for that and you have to plan for it appropriately. Otherwise, the business can really suffer so on all about the business that it's healthy and sustainable.

 

Kathy (guest): 

So in the way how I started this, like I said, I mean I've come from a family of entrepreneurs. And I have a background in corporate finance. I was there for 14 years almost. And when I left my previous corporate job, I thought, "What's the next step that I can take in my career? So it's either go back to the corporate, kind of like say stable, or it's starting something new." And that's when I decided either now or never. So that's how NewCastle Finance was founded. 

 

Nikki (host): 

You mentioned that you come from a family of entrepreneurs. What did you see as you were growing up that made you say, "Yes, I want to do that and work for myself?" And maybe also some of the lessons learned that you saw from watching your family go through their entrepreneurial journeys.

 

Kathy (guest): 

Yeah. There was a lot of struggle that I saw and the businesses were doing well, but there's always this felt like they were working 24/7 because they just could figure out how to make it, like I said, healthy and sustainable in a way that it supported them and it supported the business. So my dad was an entrepreneur, my aunt was an entrepreneur, and for the longest time I actually thought, "There's no way I would want to do that for myself." And that it kind of, when you have that in your blood, it's always in the back of your mind. So for me it was, how can I make this better? Because I've seen the places that they struggle. And how do I turn that around so that it actually works for my business and what do I need to be careful of? One of the things, you know, finances were, were a big part of it.

Kathy (guest): 

They had some people that unfortunately was stealing from them. So I mean, it was a really bad situation and they lost a lot of money because of that. So I obviously, because I am in finance, I don't have to worry about that because I can see the signs, but I want to help entrepreneurs to put those boundaries in place so that they, unfortunately, don't get into those type of situations because in the small business arena, internal controls, the way that we call them in finance are super important. 

 

Kathy (guest): 

So that like for example, how this looks like in practicality, that you do not want to have someone pay the bill, reconcile your bank account, and actually put the vendor into your QuickBooks or Xero or whatever you are using, because these are like three different touch points in the accounting. You want to have at least two people do that type of job. 

 

Kathy (guest): 

So these are like the type of very similar, very easy things that you can implement in your business to have those controls in place to safeguard your assets. 

Nikki (host): 

I think you bring up a great example because it's really easy for. Well, I say easy. If you are an entrepreneur, you're working on your own and you are used to doing all the things, right? So you're the person who puts the vendors in, you write the checks, you reconcile the account. And then when you hire a team or are, you know, hire someone in, you think, "Oh, I can just turn this all over to them." And you're saying like, "No, you can't turn everything over like that." Separation of duties needs to apply because you do have another person in the business.

 

Kathy (guest): 

Yeah, exactly. And this is not to make it so that people freak out about it and say, "Oh my God, people are stealing from me." No, not at all. But you have to be aware of it that that is a problem in the small business area. And it's simple, Super simple to safeguard yourself from that. And a lot of it comes from really understanding your numbers.

 

Kathy (guest): 

And I know this is such a cliche, but everyone says, "You gotta know your numbers, you gotta understand your numbers." But really like the simplest thing is, Look at your bank statement, right? Does your bank statement reconcile to the ending cash on your balance sheet at the end of the month? If you are a bookkeeper or whoever's reconciling your books, those two numbers, if you have $15,000 in your bank account, the balance sheet at cash account at the end of the month, those two should equal. And if they don't, then you have to start asking questions for example.

 

Kathy (guest): 

The other things, look at your vendor list in QuickBooks or Xero. Do you recognize all these vendors, vendor names that they're on there? Look at the balances on the vendors. Are some of the vendors like really, really small amounts? Some of they're really big. I mean, look at those things.

Kathy (guest): 

I mean, some of these internal controls can be really easy to implement, and it's just looking at the numbers and the trends that you have in your financial statement and the more you look at it, the more you're familiar with the way how your business operates and how it actually looks like. So you're able to figure out, "Oh, this might not be normal." Or "maybe I have to look more into it." It's just the curiosity. That's what's important. 

Nikki (host): 

Yeah, I love that. The curiosity and not being afraid of actually looking at your numbers and delving into what they might mean. So I think that's the important piece. I like that. Be curious. 

Kathy (guest): 

Yep. Exactly. 

Nikki (host): 

You are well versed in one of the challenge areas that a lot of entrepreneurs face, which is finances. So what challenges did you face as you were starting to build this business around focusing on small businesses and their finances? 

 

Kathy (guest): 

I think for me the easiest was obviously the finance because I'm in, I know that world. I lived in that world. I lived and breathed that world. But everything, you know, when you own your business, it's not just the things that you're good at. You also have to now start doing things that you're not good at, at least at the beginning. So marketing and sales were my major issues because I've never had to do marketing. I never had to do sales, even though I worked with marketing and sales in my corporate world, but I was supporting them from a financial perspective. So I understand how they operate, but understanding how something operates and actually doing it, there was a completely two different things. Right? So that was a major challenge for me. It's like, how do I take pretty complex offering that it's really needed and the market obviously has the need for it. But how do I make it approachable to people so that they understand what can I actually do for them? Who is it being done for and how do I do it? What are the results that are getting?

Kathy (guest): 

And I think that was something that I struggle with and I mean, one thing that I've learned is that it's never completely done because the market always gives you information, so you can always reiterate it, you can make it better. So I think of my marketing and sales journey still, even though I am 180 degrees different than what it was when I originally started.

Kathy (guest): 

It's still this journey. It's not a destination. It's really a journey. And even I learn much about myself and the business and the people that I want to work with and the type of problems they have. Because like I said, you know, not every Fractional CFO is good for every business. So you really need to be in the space that you understand, that you love to do. And as I'm working with clients, I'm starting to understand more about the things that I love to do and things that I don't want to do, and that drives my marketing and sales as well. 

Nikki (host): 

So the next question is a two-parter. When before someone is, is making or kind of generating the revenue they might need to work with you specifically at what stage in a business should an entrepreneur start thinking about bringing in a CFO versus just working with their accountant or bookkeeper?

Kathy (guest): 

Yeah, and that's a great question and I get asked that a lot. I personally do not work. Web businesses are below a million dollars because just the specialties that I have in my business. I need to be able for them to have that revenue already so that they can get the most benefit from our work together.

Kathy (guest): 

However, there are Fractional CFOs that work with businesses that are below $1 million, so I want to make that very clear that if you need that type of support, they are Fractional CFOs out there that can help. But the moment where you were start to think about bringing someone on, like this is for example, if you have plans of significant growth in the future within the next two years. So let's say for example, you right now you are $250,000. There is a demand for your services or for your product that you easily be in a couple of million dollars within the next two to three years. So you need someone to help you put that structure in place because as you are in the beginning stages, you are at the best place possible to start putting that foundation, the right financial foundation to grow. So you want to do that as soon as possible, if you see the demand that's growing. So that's number one. 

 

Kathy (guest): 

Number two is, This is, and if you're a startup for example, and you're starting to, and you have investors, it's good to have someone there that can actually help you have those type of conversations with your investors, that help you produce the right type of documentation, have the right type of conversations with them, so that's very helpful. And if you are a business owner that that's not growing at a significant pace. Or if you don't have investors, you can benefit from a Fractional CFO. If you just have management questions that your accountant and bookkeeper, when you go to them and you ask them, they're like, "Eh, that's not really my expertise. I don't really know that, or I don't do that." Then you can go and engage a Fractional CFO. That is for your specific revenue point where you are, like I said, it could be someone that actually works with businesses. They're under a million and there's Fractional CFOs out there that work with those type of businesses as well.

Nikki (host): 

Great. And my second part to that is when companies are coming to you, what challenges are they facing? What problems are? Because you think, okay, you've generated a million or up to 10 million, you're doing something right. Right.

Kathy (guest): 

True. 

 

Nikki (host): 

So what problems are they facing where they're saying, like, "I imagine they're imagining more growth, increased growth," but what are some of the specific problems that folks are coming to you for once they've kind of achieved those milestones? 

 

Kathy (guest): 

And a lot of that is around profitability and cash. So they either have profit but they don't have cash, or there's like this case of disappearing cash or the other way around. They're very cash heavy, but there's no profit. And usually that has to do with the way how they do accounting. So they're not really understanding how does that work? And the accountant doesn't explain that to them. And the bookkeepers, they're doing a transactional day to day work, which is, and I want to make it very clear, the bookkeeping is extremely, extremely important part of the business, and so is the taxation, accounting portion as well. But they're very confused about their finances that they don't even know where to start and what to do. So that's where they come to me. 

 

Kathy (guest): 

And the other piece is too, that they are hiring and they are not sure if they can afford those type of people, and they don't know what type of compensation to offer them, especially from a commission perspective if they have sales people in there. So usually they talk to a couple of friends in the industry and they see what they're doing and they want to replicate that in the. 

Kathy (guest): 

However, the problem with that is that what other people are doing in the business might not be appropriate to your specific business. So they really need that financial modeling and figuring out what is the profitability, how should I actually pay commissions? What are my expenses going to be? So we have to go through this whole exercise of budgeting. We have to figure out what the market is saying about industry. I mean, there's a whole analysis that needs to be done and there's a lot of work and they just don't know where to start. They know they need it, but they have no idea where to start.

 

Kathy (guest): 

So that's where I come in and I help them with it. And usually there's a lot of other issues that are happening underneath as well, like management issues that business has grown. But there's an operational portion that needs to be take a look at. So I help them figure out who they need to hire to fix those things too. Because I only focus on the finances. But because, and I always say this, whatever you do at the business, whether it be how you treat your customers, how you treat your employees, how you manage people, everything will eventually end up in your numbers. It really will. 

Kathy (guest): 

So if I see specific issues like efficiency issues or there's a systems and process issue, I will go and recommend that they hire operations managers or whoever they need to fix that for them. Because once we fix that, then the numbers will improve as well. So there's a lot of things that they see that they're not really sure how to fix and that's what they bring me in and we figure out what. 

 

Kathy (guest): 

Right. 

 

Nikki (host): 

So if I'm thinking about the distinction between say, bookkeeper, CPA, and a CFO, it sounds like some combination of the bookkeeper and this CPA, they're looking at kind of what's the present state, right? Like present tense, and if you're thinking about taxes, they're looking backwards and it sounds like a CFO. It's more forward looking and future. To help you go to your next stage in your business. Is that a fair distinction between those? 

 

Kathy (guest): 

Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it is. So the bookkeepers are there for the transactional work that they make sure that your invoices are okay on time, that people are actually paying you, that everything is the right places. And then accountants are there to do the the tax work, so they really take care of your past and your present situation in the business. But when it comes to all the future focus and all the decisions that you are making about the business, that's where the Fractional CFO comes in and they're very strategic.

 

Kathy (guest): 

However, you cannot have a Fractional CFO, a good Fractional CFO in place if you do not have a bookkeeper and an accountant. And when I come into the business, I'm very clear that I do not do bookkeeping. I do not do accounting. And the businesses have to have that in the place already for us to be able to work together. And if they don't, then we source them. But that's really is the absolute foundation for the business that wants to have a Fractional CFO in place. 

 

Nikki (host): 

Thank you for sharing that because I think I've seen businesses that advertise, they do all of those things. Hopefully it's not the same person doing all those things, but I that you really helped clarify like the difference in the roles and maybe the different types of skills that are required to do each one of those, to fulfill each one of those roles. That's very, very helpful. As you think about Kathy, your time in business, what are some of the accomplishments that you're most proud of? 

Kathy (guest): 

I think one of my biggest accomplishments is the, I wouldn't say the work life balance in the way that's in the amount of hours that I work, but in the amount of freedom that this has given me. Like for example, I am just planning to all spend right now that things are opening up again. I'm going to be spending a month in Europe, working from Europe. And because I still have a lot of family there since I grew up there, and this is something that I'm really, really proud of, that I was able to build this business that still supports my family, that supports my income level, and I'm able to support other businesses, do what I love and still have that freedom to essentially do it wherever I want. That was also one of my goals when I started this business too, to have this freedom of movement and work on my terms, and I absolutely love that. So that's something that I'm super, super proud of. 

 

Nikki (host):

 I love that. I think that's everyone's goal is that have that freedom and not be tied, not be tied into your business such that it doesn't allow that freedom. So I think that that is great that you've been able to accomplish. One of the topics I know you talk a bit about is about what women business owners need to know about their finances and the way that Fortune 500 companies manage their finances. So can you talk a bit about what are some lessons from Fortune 500 companies that women business owners can implement in their own businesses?

Kathy (guest): 

Yeah. I think the best way to think of it is that your finance is a structure. I like to think about it as a financial house. You really need to have that foundation as we talked about the bookkeeping and accounting so that you can build on top of it so that you can make those good decision. The financial analysis of your statements that's something that is very normal and in the Fortune 500 companies because now that then you have this data, like you have to actual analyze this and make, get insights from it. And a lot of small businesses, they get the information and then like, "Okay, I'm done for the tax season, and that's it." No, like you get this, use it, use it, use it, use it. So really you gotta use it. And the way how you use it is to do that analysis and you can have some of that stuff your bookkeeper to do for you. Or you can hire like a set of Fractional CFO that can help you put that together. 

 

Kathy (guest): 

The other pieces is making sure that you have the right processes, because if you do not have the right processes in your business, in your finances, you are losing a lot of money because of the inefficiencies that you have. And then unfortunately, you know, you will have to hire more people to support that, and when you hire more people, you have more expenses. So really taking a look at the processes and the systems that you have and how you are using your resources, not just the money resources, but also the human resources that you have in your business. Because that's something that big businesses are very much focused on too. How are we using the resources? 

 

Kathy (guest):

And the fourth piece says, looking at the financial data that you have and using that for the future. Make sure that you have budgets in place. So the budgets should be done annually, and hopefully you're doing them a year in advance. So you would start, for example, for the budget for the next year right now we're in May. You would start building the budget in November or October of this year so that you start the next year with a clear budget. And once you have the budget in place, which was great. There's things that are going to be happening in your business that are going to be constantly changing. So make sure that you are updating that so that will become your forecast. And that's something that big businesses are doing on a constantly as well. They're updating constantly looking at their financial, what's happening, what do they think it's going to happen, and setting the course for the business. So updating that in your finance. 

Kathy (guest): 

And then the fifth piece says we, we've started this conversation with internal controls, which is essentially safeguarding your assets. And this is important when you are growing and you're going to have more people touching your financials, making sure that you have that delegate separation of duties so that you just, you don't unnecessarily expose yourself to something that's just not good for your business. Right. 

 

Nikki (host): 

Yeah, I think that's great. And as I think through those, What pieces of these can small business owners start to implement right away? Like what's the basic thing that folks need to do? So you talked about financial analysis, but that may require either some additional help or some training. What are kind of those two or three things that the average business owner who maybe avoids the finances, right. What are some of the things that you would suggest or advice that they do just to kind of get curious or just get into the practice of being a bit more proactive around their finances? 

 

Kathy (guest): 

Yeah, sure. So first of all, make sure that your books are updated at least on a monthly basis, so that your bookkeeper actually keeps all of your books accurate and updated on a monthly basis. So that you can actually take a look at those numbers, sit down and look at those numbers and you know that they are the most recent and the most relevant to you right now, so that there's not a bill that you receive back in January and right now we're in May, that it just didn't make it in there. So that's number one. 

Kathy (guest): 

Number two is look at your financial statements. And again, it's like people are like, Where? Where do you start? And there's three of them. So there's, you have your P&L, profit and loss statement, or your income statement that tells you about your income, your expenses. So income minus to your net expenses, that's to your net income.

 

Kathy (guest): 

So if you are seeing that it's negative, then you have to really start looking into your profitability. If either if it's negative or it's low, that means that there's something happen. It doesn't mean that you're necessarily losing money again because it depends on the way how your bookkeeper does accounting, but it's a red flag to think about, "I need to figure this out." Have that conversation with your accountant or your bookkeeper and ask them what's happening here. Don't be afraid to have those conversations. 

 

Kathy (guest): 

The third one would be to go take a look at your balance sheet, and a lot of people really afraid of the balance sheet, but the balance sheet is such a wealth of information about your business because it's really going to tell you what you own in the business, what you owe, meaning what your liabilities are, and essentially what it's left after, which is your equity. So the balance sheet always needs to balance. If the balance sheet doesn't balance, that's a problem and you can easily see that on your statement as well on the balance sheet statement. 

 

Kathy (guest): 

But the things to look on there is where your cash is. Where has it been for the last couple of months? So when you look at the financial statements, whether it's going to be balance sheet or you profit and loss statement, don't just look at the current month that you're looking at, but look at that trend over the last year to see where things are going, and you can see a lot of things there. So don't be afraid to kind of dig around and just be curious, where is my cash? How are my liabilities looking? Meaning how much do I actually owe? 

 

Kathy (guest): 

The other piece is if you have accounts receivable, go take a look at the aging schedule. So either Xero or QuickBooks have a thing called the aging schedule in the reporting. Go take a look at it. Maybe you'll find that there's some invoice that your customers saw haven't paid you, and you have to follow up on it. So there might be a lot of money tied in there that you just have to go and collect. So that will affect cash. 

 

Kathy (guest): 

And then in terms of financial analysis, There's software out there that you can use. You can ask your bookkeeper and accountant to set it up for you. I wouldn't do it yourself because even though these type of software are very easy to do, you still need someone to set it up for you properly so that it doesn't give you, garbage in, garbage out information. So the two are Fathom and Spotlight Reporting. So those are really good for small businesses. You can, if you have QuickBooks Advance, you actually get Fathom for free. So use that resource. And the nice thing about Fathom is that it will tell you, if you click on item that you're looking at, it will tell you how has it been trending on the past couple months and what it actually means especially you can set up your own KPI, the the key performance indicator. And if you don't know what it means, you can actually click on and it will tell you the definition and how it actually rates in your business. So it's very user friendly, especially for small businesses. So if you don't have that, those are the two great resources that you can do and use for your financial analysis. I hope that that's been helpful. 

 

Nikki (host): 

Yeah. No, that's very helpful. So you said Fathom and then Spotlight reporting are the two, are the two tools they can use for financial analysis. No, I think that's very helpful to get, again, past that fear and like there are tools out here that they can help you do this. I think oftentimes it's just hard knowing what questions to ask, even if you're going to a professional, like what questions do I have, but how do I even articulate what I'm looking for? Because it's hard to dig in. But I think some of these tools are helpful to at least get in there, do some digging, do some playing around, and then figure ou. Then be able to ask questions if you don't know what's going on. So I think that's very, very helpful. 

Nikki (host): 

So you talk about working with businesses that have broken that seven figure revenue mark. What is different about those businesses? Like what is the secret, if you can share with us, what helps someone get to that million dollar mark versus a lot of businesses, and particularly a lot of women owned businesses, never make it to that milestone. So what is it that you see that makes the difference for those businesses who do reach that level?

 

Kathy (guest): 

Well, I think going to a million dollars, it's really all about making sure that whatever you are offering, the service or the product that you have, that the market really wants, and you're advertising it in a way that resonates with that particular audience and setting up the right prices. So making sure that you have the right market fit, and then making sure that, that you have prices done right. Because if your prices are not done correctly, then you're going to be losing money. So you're going to have more expenses than what you're bringing in, and that's very important from the profitability standpoint. 

 

Kathy (guest): 

Once you've got past that threshold and now you got some wind under your wings, then being in the 1 million, that's when you have to start putting together a team that you can delegate to that. Now you have to start thinking about the processes and the systems. And if you don't do that, and I've seen some businesses that I've worked with that they have the team, but they don't really have the processes and the systems just yet. They haven't really invested, not just in terms of money, but in terms of time in that particular area. They really struggle because now there's this blockage that they can't really grow. Now, the more growth you have, the more volume you have, the more you have to be efficient of how you do things again, because if you don't, then essentially the business feels scattered and chaotic. Like everyone's, they're doing their own thing because there's no uniformity across how we are doing, how we are really doing things in the business that we are doing. And if every person that works in your business, if you have 5, 6, 10 employees, And every single one is doing their own thing. It's a problem. Not only because you are not being efficient and you have to hire extra people, but also from a point of customer perspective. Because if I come into the business and employee A goes in services me, and if you go and work with the business Nikki and Employee B services you, we might have two completely different experiences.

 

Kathy (guest): 

And again, that is not good for the business because it can really damage your reputation and your brand if those are two completely different things. So think about in that terms that also, like I said, everything eventually shows up in your numbers. It will show up in your numbers in terms of customer retention, in terms of how people are going to refer you out to other people. I mean, it's all really is relevant. So the systems and processes are really, really important in that 1 million to the 5 million and the 5 million, that's where it starts to get really, really interesting in terms of now you can be selective who you work with, what you do. I mean, you can be selective with that before and you should be, but that's when you really start to hone in on how we are really doing things. And you look at your values, you look at your missions and all that. So it's all, unfortunately, like I always say, between, you know, 1,000,000 and 10, that's so that teenage awkward stage of growth happens for business centers and you just gotta get. 

Nikki (host): 

I think my mantra from today, my takeaway from today is everything shows up in your numbers. I'm going to like repeat that because. We might not think that's true, but it is true. It's your marketing, it's your sales, it's your, like you said, customer retention. It's employee retention. It's all those things. So I think you're exactly right and I think if we remember that, then it's much more important or it's much more compelling to look at your numbers because it tells you everything you need to know.

 

Nikki (host): 

So I think that's great. Well, Kathy, if folks want to find out more or they would like to explore working with you, where can they find you? 

 

Kathy (guest): 

Yeah, you can find me on my website, newcastlefinance.us. I also have my own podcast called Help! My Business is Growing that it's really trying to help the businesses that are in that, like I said, the awkward teenage stage of growth. We talk a lot about finances, operations, marketing, HR, all those types of problems. You get the resources there, and if you wanted to connect with me, you can also connect with me on LinkedIn under Kathy Svetina, I'm the only there. 

Nikki (host): 

Well, that's great, Kathy, thank you. And all of that information will also be on our show notes, and I look forward to listening to the podcast. I think it will be a delightful resource that I can use as well as share with my listeners and my clients. So there's two questions I always ask every guest. So the first question is, what are one or two songs that are on your power playlist and why? 

 

Kathy (guest): 

Right now, I really like the Ed Sheeran's Bad Habits because it has a really nice beat to it. Not because I have bad habits, , but what I, we all do and I've been trying to get more into like exercising and running. So I've been using that. I like that. So that's been the one that's been plate for the last couple of months. 

 

Nikki (host): 

And our last question is, what is one book that you feel has helped you thrive in.

Kathy (guest): 

I think if I had to narrow it down to just one, which is really super hard. It really is. I would say Donald Miller's Building a Story Brand, and the reason for that is because, like I said, my marketing was really a struggle at the beginning when I started, so that was one of the best ways to make someone who has no marketing background like myself really understand how to make it work for me in a way that it's compelling and that it actually can explain things. And he also has a course as well that I took based on that book. And it's been super, super helpful and I actually use that in multiple ways all the time, and I highly recommend it. 

 

Nikki (host): 

Great. And it sounded like you had at least one other that you would recommend. What's another? 

 

Kathy (guest): 

The other one would be, I think the other one, which is really important for people when they're trying to price things. It would be Value-based Pricing, and that's a, I don't know what his first name is, but his last name is Weiss. I think Alan Weiss is the right author. I hope, but Value-based Pricing, it's a great book and it talks about how do you actually price your products and services in the right way. So that it actually communicates the value too, because pricing is not just from the term. Pricing, it's a very fascinated topic. It's not just from a perspective of the profitability, but also what does it communicate about your company and your values and how you actually serve the customer. So I thought that was a very interesting book from that perspective, and I absolutely love it. And just a side note too, I'm very fascinated by the whole topic of pricing too. So yeah, that's why I love it. 

 

Nikki (host): 

Well, great. Thank you for sharing those. Kathy. I will add those two to my reading list and, et you know what I think after I read them. 

Kathy (guest): 

Awesome. Yeah, you should do that. They, I highly, highly recommend them. Thanks so much for having me, Nikki. It's been absolute pleasure. 

 

Nikki (host): 

Yes, thank you, Kathy, for your time today, and I look forward to, like I said, listening to the podcast and seeing what other great things you get up to.

 

Kathy (guest): 

Thanks. 

 

Nikki (host): 

All right. Take care.

 

Nikki (host):

Thank you for listening to this week's episode of Women Thriving in Business Podcast. If you like this episode, share it with a friend and then join the conversation on social media and let us know what you learned or what resonated for you. Be sure to like, review and subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. Until next week, keep thriving.