Kathy (guest):
The more I started doing it, the more I really got educated about what sales means and how good selling looks like, not just selling, but good selling, excellent selling. It’s just trying to be helpful and supportive and figuring out what is the best solution for what they need. Right now, what I have noticed is that even though you might lose a business in that way, you’re still getting the right fit business. And people appreciate this so much that they actually send you referrals.

Intro:
Are you looking to improve your sales skills without compromising your values? Welcome to Sales Made Easy, a podcast for business and personal growth. Join Harry Spaight, author of “Selling with Dignity: Your Formula for Life-Changing Sales Results” as he hosts sales experts and business owners who share their journeys of personal growth and business success without resorting to pushy sales tactics. Now here’s your host, Harry.

Harry (host):
For those of you who are interested in finances, that’s a big part of business. We’ve got a special treat with our guest today. Many business owners struggle to understand their financials and don’t know how to use that information to plan for their business. Kathy Svetina is the founder of NewCastle Finance, a company that helps women business owners get clear on their numbers and their financial strategies so they feel confident they’re making good decisions that result in a healthy and sustainable business. So Kathy Svetina, welcome to the Sales Made Easy podcast. What is the good word?

Kathy (guest):
Thanks so much for having me, Harry. I’m super excited to be here with you.

Harry (host):
So Kathy and I have been friends for a few years now. If you don’t know her, you have to follow her on LinkedIn. She drops tons of value. She is a fractional CFO. And so Kathy, what exactly does a fractional CFO do? And how can our listeners benefit from knowing this?

Kathy (guest):
So a fractional CFO might sound like a bit of a complicated term, but it’s really not. When you think about it, a fraction is a part of something, so what you’re getting is a CFO that is in your business for a part of their time. So instead of paying, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars for a CFO, which is what a CFO actually costs you, you’re getting someone, especially if you’re a small business, for a fraction of the time, for a fraction of that particular cost, because you’re sharing that person with other businesses as well. So it’s almost like a shared service, but instead of sharing it with the people that you know, you’re sharing it with other companies, but you’re still getting the same type of service that you would get with a regular CFO.

Harry (host):
Beautiful. Do people know there is such a thing as a fractional CFO? Or is just helping people be aware of this a big part of your marketing?

Kathy (guest):
That’s a really good question. So I’ve been doing this for the last four years, and I’m noticing that things are changing. So originally, when I first started, there was a lot of education of the market. What is a fractional CFO? What can we do? How are we different from an accountant and bookkeeper? And I’m still doing some of that education, but now a lot of people are actually coming to me and asking, “We need someone like you. We need a fractional CFO.” So the market is now starting to use the term fractional CFO, but it’s not just because of the CFOs. There are also other fractional people out there. There are fractional sales managers, fractional HR people, fractional marketing people. So that’s really helping, because this fractional term is starting to be more known in the marketplace, and that’s definitely a good thing, because we’re going from educating people what fractional means to educating about the service that they’re going to be getting, and how we’re different from other people. So it’s shifting. The marketing is starting to shift more.

Harry (host):
Okay, beautiful. And would you say that people who are in need of your services, where would they fit in with, like annual revenues, where they might start considering that they need, or is that the benchmark? Typically, is it annual revenues, where they start thinking that they could use a fractional CFO before they even think about getting a CFO?

Kathy (guest):
With a fractional CFO, it depends on where you are in your journey. You know, a lot of people ask me, “When do I know that I need a fractional CFO?” So there’s a difference if you’re already an established business or if you’re a startup looking for investors. You would need a fractional CFO, for example, if you’re a startup looking for investors, if you approve revenue, because you need someone to guide you through that process. Also, investors are more likely to invest in you if you have someone at the helm that’s going to steer your finances so they have a lot more confidence. But I don’t work with startups. I work with established businesses. What I mean by that is businesses that are already between $1-10 million because they’re going to have that pain of, “Hey, I have an accountant and a bookkeeper already, they’re doing an excellent job. But I need more than that. I need someone to help me make actual business decisions, like strategic business decisions.” For example, you know, are the commissions that I’m paying my salespeople at the right levels that they should be? How does that tie into my business? How do I hire new people? When should I hire them? How is this product or service going to impact my business in the future? So these are all types of questions that people are asking the bookkeepers and accountants, but they get frustrated because they’re not getting those answers. But it’s really not the fault of bookkeepers and accountants, because that’s not their job. What bookkeeping and accounting is doing is taking all of the data that your business gets and updating the past. So they’re really concerned about the past of your business. When it comes to the future of your business, this is where the finance people lie, and this is where the fractional CFOs excel in figuring out the strategy, the long-term strategy, and the future of your business, and not so much concern about the past. We need the past, obviously, but you don’t live in the past. As a business owner, you want to know where the future is going.

Harry (host):
Oh, that’s such a great answer. I even have clarity on that, so I know you hit the nail on the head. So let me ask, do you think most people – do you think there are people out there that even are not sure what CFOs do, because what you just described is very different from what I know. A lot of salespeople view CFOs as bean counters, and they speak negatively. For all of you salespeople speaking negatively of CFOs, understand that the good ones are very strategic and looking forward and may need your stuff, so treat them with respect. So talk to me about that. Where is this misconception coming from? This – I don’t even know if it’s old school, but were CFOs ever really bean counters?

Kathy (guest):
Unfortunately, I would say yes, because there has been also progression in the way how finance used to work and how it works now. There has been a lot more need of looking at the business and being more strategic, and actually having this holistic view, and not just in the small business space, but also in more of the corporate space where I come from. There is more of this need to actually be a business partner to other departments. So before, we can think of Accounting and Finance being almost like an ivory tower, telling people what to do. And I think that’s where this perception of bean counter started. Now there is more of this need and cultivating of relationships with other departments. And I always say this: finance doesn’t exist in a vacuum. I cannot do my job if I do not know what’s happening in marketing, what’s happening with sales, what’s happening with operations. Because every single thing that you do in your business, whether it’s small or big or even if it’s a multi-billion business, it’s going to affect the finances. So making sure that those relationships that you have with the marketing and salespeople, especially salespeople, because salespeople are so important when it comes to forecasting the revenue and when the money is actually going to come in – I cannot do my job if I do not have a good relationship with the salespeople. So I think maybe that’s where the perception started, because it wasn’t that partnering with the departments before. It was more telling them what to do.

Harry (host):
Exactly, so good. I mean, I can think of years ago, nothing current, because everyone’s adapted to this new thinking. You have – wink, wink. But CFOs would, basically, from the Ivory Tower, say you need to sell with more profit to sales, right? Like, okay, what does that mean? We need to raise our GP percentages. It’s like, oh, okay, yeah, so, right. So it’s just, it’s funny. It’s just like, we’re just going to send this out and you guys do it, which again, caused massive conflict and – but by the way, they were kind of responsible for us getting paychecks every pay period, so you couldn’t really fight it. But it wasn’t a real partnership at all. But it sounds to me like the value of this relationship – it’s like in sales. I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but sometimes sales leaders make forecasts to look good on paper, and the numbers don’t always follow the actuals. The actuals don’t always follow the forecast, yep. So having a great relationship with a sales leader, you could say, “So Harry, this is your forecast really. What do you think I can count on?” Yep, and you know, so it’s kind of an off-the-record conversation that no one, no sales leader’s going to want to just volunteer that, because that becomes their forecast. Then it may be below the number. Then you know, all kinds of bad things can happen. But you’re following this line of thinking I have. What do you think about it, if you want?

Kathy (guest):
Yeah, and for me, here’s the thing. I know the sales – they have their own quota that they have to meet. But for me, as a finance person, if you know already that you’re not going to meet that quota, that there’s a chance you’re not going to meet it, I would like to know it. If you tell me open and honestly, “Hey, this is – I’m not going to meet it. I just know it,” because then I can forecast and say, “Okay, if Harry’s not going to meet this particular quota, that might cause cash shortage for me three, four months down the line.” And I would much rather know that right now so that I can prepare the business. Do we need to get a loan? Do we need to change our terms? Do we need to extend our line of credit? Whatever it might be, whatever levers I need to pull so that I can get the business through that particular issue, because we’re not going to be meeting that revenue. So it’s much better for me to know that in advance, so I can prepare, versus, you know, a week before that, and like, “Hey, this deal fell through. It just didn’t, it just didn’t happen.” And then we’re all scrambling and trying to figure out, “Okay, now, now, what do we do?” Right?

Harry (host):
Oh, it’s so beautiful. And so on the sales side of things, sales really should have the understanding of what’s going on in the finance side, right? This stuff, I mean, everything was kind of kept in silos for many – and not just my past, but in many businesses, there’s silos. Sales – you focus on sales. Finance, right? You get the idea of what silos are, yep. But how do you break down the silos? Is such a very valuable conversation. What do you suggest that companies that are in this space of a million to $10-10 million, or even larger, what do you suggest they do to, like, get everyone on the same page and understand the value of this conversation?

Kathy (guest):
You know, the good thing is, with the small businesses, they’re not that many silos, because you don’t have that many people. The thing, when it gets really complex is, as the business grows, that it gets into multiple hundreds of millions of dollars. And this is where corporations have such a hard, hard time with this. Naturally, silos start to develop. And unfortunately, because every single person starts to have their own agenda. And what I’ve noticed is when people are starting to put their agendas and the agendas of their own departments in front, in front of the actual agenda as a whole as a company, that’s when things start to break down. It’s because we’re all saying, you know, we’re all here for the greater good of the company. We are different pieces of the organization that work together. And if everything works together, you know, it’s like a fine-tuned machine. But when things start to break down, is when every single piece of the machine thinks that they can operate on their own without the others’ input. So for me, the way how I like to handle this is come into the conversation, say open and honestly and say, “Hey, we all need each other. I need you just as much as you need me. I’m not there in my own ivory tower barking down orders to you. But if we are coming together and saying, ‘Hey, we’re all doing this for the greater good of the company,’ which, by the way, the greater good of the company is also in our best interest as well. Because I’m getting paid, you’re getting paid, you’re getting your commission, and my forecasts look good, and I can prepare the company. We all win.” So let’s think of it as, how do we make it so that we all win, versus just one person or one department, which never happens, you know, because we’re all dependent on each other, that when things start to break down, the rest of the company is going to start to break down.

Harry (host):
Yeah, now it makes perfect sense. Okay, so you obviously have skills here in the world of finances, and when looking at your LinkedIn profile, I can see you have quite the history of this being with your financial background. What made you decide that “I’m going to go out on my own and figure out how I can do sales and marketing and grow a business” with the background that you have? So what was going through your mind when you got started? Was it four or five years ago?

Kathy (guest):
Yeah. So, you know, I have a background in finance, particularly FP&A, which is financial planning and analysis. So the good thing with FP&A is that we see a lot of areas in the business, so we have these conversations with sales and marketing. And I have supported sales and marketing before, but you know, when you support them from the financial piece, versus actually doing sales and marketing on your own, it’s a completely different animal. So going from finance into actually running your own business, it’s – it was – how do I put this lightly? It was a culture shock. It was definitely a culture shock, because now you are not only doing what you’re good at, which is finance, which is what I have a lot of skill in, you know, almost 20 years in finance, but now, how do I market this business? And who do I market it to? How does that work? And then how do I actually sell it? It’s just like my mind was absolutely just on fire. So I think what I did is I started doing it piece by piece. So there were a couple of things that I found that were really helpful for me. Like, for example, StoryBrand was one of the first marketing frameworks that I really liked and resonated with me. And ever since, I have actually then hired marketing people. I have hired copywriters for my website to really understand this. But one of the things that was – you’re gonna laugh at this, Harry, but it was kind of revolutionary for me at the beginning of this year. It’s like, why am I trying to figure this out on my own? Why don’t I just go to my customers and ask them, you know, what is it that you want? What are the benefits that you got out of our engagement together? Like, how did what I’m doing change your business? And it sounds so simple and so basic, but it just never clicked for me. I never – like I use data all the time with my finances, but I never use that type of data in terms of sales and marketing. So I know it sounds very basic, but it’s one of those things that changed the trajectory of the business this year, and it really made a huge impact.

Harry (host):
Awesome. So what exactly did you do with that information from your clients? Did you put it in video format on your website? Or how did – how are you using it?

Kathy (guest):
So right now, it is still in progress, so I can tell you that originally, at the beginning of the year, and we’re recording this in 2023, I’ve hired someone to interview all my customers, so I did customer research, and then I also did some of the web copy audits with people who would be likely my customers. So they gave me feedback on that, and then I basically took all of that information, and I said, “Okay, now that I have this, what do I do with all this data?” So I knew that I wanted to go and change the website copy, but not just because I needed to change the website copy, but also because when I changed the website copy, it changes the messaging as well. So the underlying tone there is that I wanted to make sure that the messaging is right and the positioning is right. So the web copy really helped with that, because as you’re putting words on the paper, you are looking at, does this make sense? Does this match what the customer said? You know, it’s a lot easier to go towards common goal or goal versus said, versus saying. You know, I just need to change my positioning. So okay, how do we do that? So I use web copy as an anchor for that to make it easier. So I hired someone to do that, and we’re still in the process of putting that actually on the website. But it was, there was so much clarity in terms of the customers that this company is a good fit for like, how do we make sure that what I’m talking about, the company actually resonates with people. So it’s, it’s been very eye eye opening to see that come, come together. So it all stems from, you know, customer research.

Harry (host):
Yeah, it’s great. You’re such an expert. And, I mean, I look at what you’ve done knowing you again in our group conversations, it seems like you’re such an expert on marketing. And I know you don’t think of yourself as one, but you really – I mean, for many of us, we could look and learn from you. I remember a couple of years ago, you had every possible app on AppSumo, and you were trying all kinds of different things. I went through that stage myself. I think this part of growth, oh, a new shiny software from AppSumo. But let’s talk about the sales side of things, because you’ve definitely had the marketing thing down, and you’ve gotten better at it. But what about the one-to-one sales? What’s helped you with that?

Kathy (guest):
So the one-to-one sales? Obviously, it’s been happening, because I’ve had sales, but one of the things that I really wanted to do recently in the business is turn it into a good process. Because I think when you have processes in the business, and I’ve seen that also with the businesses that I work with, once you have the process, it frees up your mental energy, so you don’t have to think about it as much. And also it’s repeatable, so that you can see what’s working and what’s not working, and it increases the quality, because now it’s not that, you know, if I talk to Harry, he’s going to get one side of me. And then I talk to Jane over there, and she’s going to get a completely different side of me. So having that process in sales, it was so valuable to me. So what I did, also, at the beginning of the year, I said, “Okay, I’m done with muddling this through and figuring out what works and what doesn’t, I’m going to hire a sales coach.” So I did hire a sales coach that specializes in women-owned businesses. So we did that, and we went through my entire discovery call, how does that work? What are some of the things, the language that I can use around it, the process, like the entire step-by-step. How do I do that? How do I actually guide, gently guide the person towards what decisions they need to make? And I want to point out here that maybe the right decision for them is not to hire a fractional CFO. So that’s also important too, because for me, I think, as a fractional CFO, you’re in a unique position where sometimes you almost have to bid against yourself, because I could get a client that it might not be in their best interest to actually hire a fractional CFO for whatever reason might be, because they’re just not ready. Their bookkeeping is not done right. We need to first figure that out. Or maybe they’re just not financially ready for one, even though they need one. So then I just refer them to other people, but having that process around the discovery calls was so important for me because it freed up my mental energy so that I can focus more on the person and helping them, versus trying to figure out, “Okay, so now what do I do? What are we going to talk about?” Right?

Harry (host):
Yeah, that’s true. So good. When you started out, I’m just trying to envision what you were like several years ago, but when you just started your business, what was the first thing that you thought about sales?

Kathy (guest):
I hated it.

Harry (host):
Okay, and so what changed? How did that change?

Kathy (guest):
I think one – because when I was thinking about sales, and you know, even you say that in your book, and you have this great example of someone being in a parking lot, and then the guy comes in and shakes your hand, and it’s just – I mean, that was the visual that still stuck in my head, and that was really what I thought about sales. But the more I started doing it, the more I really got educated about what sales means and how good selling looks like, not just selling, but good selling, excellent selling. It’s just trying to be helpful and be supportive and figuring out what is the best solution for what they need right now. And it might be that it’s not you, it could be someone else. But what I have noticed is that even though you might lose a business in that way, you’re still getting the right business, the right fit business, and people appreciate this so much that they actually send you referrals. So you’re never really losing a business, you’re always gaining something. You’re gaining better customers through better selling.

Harry (host):
Yeah, so true. I mean, I’m thinking about you saying to somebody, “You’re probably not ready for me,” or “This doesn’t look like a good fit right now.” That just has got to gain massive respect on their side based on everybody wanting their money, right? So it’s like, so refreshing when someone says, “This is not the right time.” Is there ever a negative reaction to that? Are people offended by that at all? Or is it always pretty positive, would you say?

Kathy (guest):
No, not at all. I mean, it’s always a positive thing. And, you know, I tell them upfront that, you know, even though you’re not my client right now, it is still my job to make sure the decisions that you’re making, whether hiring me, that it’s going to be in your best interest and your business’s best interest. So I’m looking after your finances before you even hire me.

Harry (host):
Yeah, and this is, I mean, it’s a great sales lesson that you’re honest with your prospect, and you let them know that this may not be the best thing for you. And again, if you’re just thinking that you’re one and done with people, then you’re probably not going to do that. But if you’re building lifelong clients, or people that are going to give you referrals, you speak honestly and openly and you share these insights, and the trust factor is going to go up immensely on that.

Kathy (guest):
Yeah, and it’s also the type of business that I personally want to build. I’m all about healthy and sustainable. So healthy and sustainable does not equal fast a lot of times, unfortunately. So I’m not looking at the fast results. It’s looking at the slow, steady growth, that’s healthy, that’s sustainable. And you know, relationships are the core of my business. They take time to develop, and you can’t rush that.

Harry (host):
So good. What would you say is a length of a sales, quote-unquote, cycle for you, where it’s repeatable, when someone comes in and they start showing interest? From the time – I mean, there’s always people that change their mind and so forth. But what would you say is a good expectation for someone to get started before they decide to become a client of yours?

Kathy (guest):
So it really depends on what stage they’re in. Usually, by the time that they come to me, they already have that pain. It’s just the question is, can they, does it make sense for them? So if it does make sense for them, then we can get into a contract within a matter of, you know, days. But if they’re either too small or if they are just not ready yet, meaning that their books are completely a mess, and they need to hire a bookkeeper before that, a really good bookkeeper. And I’m not there to supervise that, because, for whatever reason, it doesn’t make sense at that point in time, then it could also last another year or two. Like I’ve been in contact with some people for two years, and we might end up working together, you know, in the next couple of months or so. But that sales cycle could be two, three years long. Also, if they’re really ready, and if they’re at that point, it could be just a couple of days. So it really depends on the stage of the business.

Harry (host):
Yeah, totally. And then the whole trust factor is like, they have a conversation with you, and they have the immediate trust, which I’ve gotta believe you can build pretty quickly based on your experience. And you know, especially when you get those testimonials and videos like, “Hey, look at my friends, look at my clients, these people say amazing things about me.”

Kathy (guest):
So one of the things that I don’t do is, I do not use testimonials from clients in my business, because it is such a sensitive topic, because it’s confidential. So I always make sure that I don’t do that. But if someone refers me to their friend – obviously, they’re, you know, whatever they decide to talk about, my services to each other. That’s none of my business. I hope it’s positive, right? But I’m not the one controlling that conversation. Also, what I also do in my marketing and my sales, I talk about the problems that I’ve solved, like on podcasts like this. That’s a big thing. I use a lot of videos, so I’ve been starting to use video for the last a little bit more than a year. So that’s a big one too. Because that way people already know how you talk, how you communicate, you know how it is to work with you. So videos are very much an important piece of my marketing and sales strategy. And also, you know, just being visible and providing these helpful resources. As you know, Harry, you were on my podcast. I have a podcast called “Help! My Business Is Growing,” which is targeted towards these growing businesses when they have, you know, everything that ends up in your finance, in your business will end up in your finances. We talk about other pieces, like sales, marketing, operations, HR, everything, because I want that to be a trusted resource for my clients and potential clients. And through that, I gain a lot of trust as well. So just being helpful and genuinely, you know, I would say caring about the business, even before they become a client, that’s been a big thing for me.

Harry (host):
Such a great attitude. And you’re giving so much value. So people can tune in, and even if they may not need you right now, they can refer your podcast or one of your videos, and say this person is a great resource and that just – or you can direct people to – I mean, are you on YouTube? Or is it all on your website?

Kathy (guest):
So right now, it’s all on my website. We are in the process of putting stuff on YouTube too, not because, you know, we want to be on YouTube, but because YouTube is one of the places where you can actually search and find these things, right?

Harry (host):
Yeah, yeah, it’s great stuff. Alright. Well, this has been awesome, and I want to keep you here all day. You’ve dropped tons of value. Is there anything that we missed that you want to bring up?

Kathy (guest):
So you know, like I said, everything that you do in your business will end up in your finances. If you’re interested in how this relates to your business, make sure you check out my podcast, “Help! My Business Is Growing,” and if you need help with your finances, I’m always there. Kathy Svetina, NewCastleFinance.us, is my website.

Harry (host):
Awesome. And we will put that in the show notes. So follow this lady. She provides massive value. She’s brilliant, and I’ve tons of respect for her. So she is one who does business with dignity and sells with dignity. She will not steer you wrong. So, Kathy, thank you so much for making an appearance and dropping the value bombs like you did today. It’s been awesome.

Kathy (guest):
Thanks so much for having me, Harry. This was delightful.

Outro:
Thank you for listening to Sales Made Easy. If you found value in our conversations, please subscribe and leave a review. Our goal is to provide practical strategies for growing your business while staying true to your values. Remember, success in sales is about serving your clients. Serve first, and the selling will follow. We’ll be back soon with more insights and inspiration. Until then, keep serving and providing value to others. Good things will happen to you.